Anne Coulter Wants to See an End to Judaism - UPDATED
She has crossed the line before, and in the past there have been times when I did not agree with her tactics, but this time it's personal. I find the following unforgiveable. Via Media Matters:
From the October 8 edition of CNBC's The Big Idea with Donny Deutsch:
DEUTSCH: Let me ask you a question. We're going to get off strengths and weakness for a second. If you had your way, and all of your -- forget that any of them --
COULTER: I like this.
DEUTSCH: -- are calculated marketing teases, and your dreams, which are genuine, came true having to do with immigration, having to do with women's -- with abortion -- what would this country look like?
COULTER: It would look like New York City during the Republican National Convention. In fact, that's what I think heaven is going to look like.
DEUTSCH: And what did that look like?
COULTER: Happy, joyful Republicans in the greatest city in the world.
DEUTSCH: No, no, no, no, but I'm talking about this country. You don't want to make this country -- it's not about Republicans. I'm saying, what would the fabric of this country look like? Forget that the Republicans would be running the show.
COULTER: Well, everyone would root for America, the Democratic Party would look like [Sen.] Joe Lieberman [I-CT], the Republican Party would look like [Rep.] Duncan Hunter [R-CA] --
DEUTSCH: No, no, no, I don't want -- I'm not talking about politically the landscape. What would our -- would we be safer? Would people be happier? Would they be more --
COULTER: We would be a lot safer.
DEUTSCH: Would there be more tolerance? Would there be -- would women be happier, would the races get along better? The Ann Coulter subscription -- prescription. What -- tell me what would be different in our fabric of country, because --
COULTER: Well, all of those things.
DEUTSCH: -- I can give -- I can give you an argument there would be more divisiveness, that there would be more hate --
COULTER: Oh, no.
DEUTSCH: -- that there would be a bigger difference between the rich and the poor, a lot of other -- tell me what -- why this would be a better world? Let's give you -- I'm going to give you -- say this is your show.
COULTER: Well, OK, take the Republican National Convention. People were happy. They're Christian. They're tolerant. They defend America, they --
DEUTSCH: Christian -- so we should be Christian? It would be better if we were all Christian?
COULTER: Yes.
DEUTSCH: We should all be Christian?
COULTER: Yes. Would you like to come to church with me, Donny?
DEUTSCH: So I should not be a Jew, I should be a Christian, and this would be a better place?
COULTER: Well, you could be a practicing Jew, but you're not.
DEUTSCH: I actually am. That's not true. I really am. But -- so we would be better if we were - if people -- if there were no Jews, no Buddhists --
COULTER: Whenever I'm harangued by --
DEUTSCH: -- in this country? You can't believe that.
COULTER: -- you know, liberals on diversity --
DEUTSCH: Here you go again.
COULTER: No, it's true. I give all of these speeches at megachurches across America, and the one thing that's really striking about it is how utterly, completely diverse they are, and completely unself-consciously. You walk past a mixed-race couple in New York, and it's like they have a chip on their shoulder. They're just waiting for somebody to say something, as if anybody would. And --
DEUTSCH: I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that at all. Maybe you have the chip looking at them. I see a lot of interracial couples, and I don't see any more or less chips there either way. That's erroneous.
COULTER: No. In fact, there was an entire Seinfeld episode about Elaine and her boyfriend dating because they wanted to be a mixed-race couple, so you're lying.
DEUTSCH: Oh, because of some Seinfeld episode? OK.
COULTER: But yeah, I think that's reflective of what's going on in the culture, but it is completely striking that at these huge megachurches -- the idea that, you know, the more Christian you are, the less tolerant you would be is preposterous.
DEUTSCH: That isn't what I said, but you said I should not -- we should just throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians, then, or --
COULTER: Yeah.
DEUTSCH: Really?
COULTER: Well, it's a lot easier. It's kind of a fast track.
DEUTSCH: Really?
COULTER: Yeah. You have to obey.
DEUTSCH: You can't possibly believe that.
COULTER: Yes.
DEUTSCH: You can't possibly -- you're too educated, you can't -- you're like my friend in --
COULTER: Do you know what Christianity is? We believe your religion, but you have to obey.
DEUTSCH: No, no, no, but I mean --
COULTER: We have the fast-track program.
DEUTSCH: Why don't I put you with the head of Iran? I mean, come on. You can't believe that.
COULTER: The head of Iran is not a Christian.
DEUTSCH: No, but in fact, "Let's wipe Israel" --
COULTER: I don't know if you've been paying attention.
DEUTSCH: "Let's wipe Israel off the earth." I mean, what, no Jews?
COULTER: No, we think -- we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.
DEUTSCH: Wow, you didn't really say that, did you?
COULTER: Yes. That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws. We know we're all sinners --
DEUTSCH: In my old days, I would have argued -- when you say something absurd like that, there's no --
COULTER: What's absurd?
DEUTSCH: Jews are going to be perfected. I'm going to go off and try to perfect myself --
COULTER: Well, that's what the New Testament says.
DEUTSCH: Ann Coulter, author of If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans, and if Ann Coulter had any brains, she would not say Jews need to be perfected. I'm offended by that personally. And we'll have more Big Idea when we come back.
[...]
DEUTSCH: Welcome back to The Big Idea. During the break, Ann said she wanted to explain her last comment. So I'm going to give her a chance. So you don't think that was offensive?
COULTER: No. I'm sorry. It is not intended to be. I don't think you should take it that way, but that is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews. We believe the Old Testament. As you know from the Old Testament, God was constantly getting fed up with humans for not being able to, you know, live up to all the laws. What Christians believe -- this is just a statement of what the New Testament is -- is that that's why Christ came and died for our sins. Christians believe the Old Testament. You don't believe our testament.
DEUTSCH: You said -- your exact words were, "Jews need to be perfected." Those are the words out of your mouth.
COULTER: No, I'm saying that's what a Christian is.
DEUTSCH: But that's what you said -- don't you see how hateful, how anti-Semitic --
COULTER: No!
DEUTSCH: How do you not see? You're an educated woman. How do you not see that?
COULTER: That isn't hateful at all.
DEUTSCH: But that's even a scarier thought. OK --
COULTER: No, no, no, no, no. I don't want you being offended by this. This is what Christians consider themselves, because our testament is the continuation of your testament. You know that. So we think Jews go to heaven. I mean, [Rev. Jerry] Falwell himself said that, but you have to follow laws. Ours is "Christ died for our sins." We consider ourselves perfected Christians. For me to say that for you to become a Christian is to become a perfected Christian is not offensive at all.
DEUTSCH: We will let the audience decide then, won't we? Ann Coulter. New book. More Big Idea straight ahead.
It is wrong to think Christians are perfect and Jews are not. It. Is. Wrong. All of us have the same potential for good and evil. It is what you do and how you treat others that counts - not your beliefs. A good person does and says good things. Coulter's snobbery, conceit, and obliviousness to history and the feelings of others who have been harmed by the views she holds proves her to be a lesser person.
I feel strongly about this and have deleted a conservative blog from my blogroll for defending Coulter.
A "fast track" to goodness? No such thing. It takes time, work and intention to be good. It takes deliberate acts of goodness and unselfishness and caring. You can't just say "I believe therefore I am."
Update:
Some essays from American Thinker which provide excellent food for thought regarding Anne Coulter's comments:
Ann Coulter is Not Helping Criticizes the effect of Coulter's comments with regard to the political outcome.
My Opinion on Ann Coulter's Opinion of the Jews A Christian opinion which I found touching and beautiful.
On Coulter, Christians, And Jews A secular Jew who thinks very differently on the issue than I do, but makes some good points. Re-reading what he has to say, I've decided he's wrong on all points.
Fast Track to pissing me off. Those Megachurches are so diverse... so tolerant... so long as we get rid of the Jews and all become Christian.
But come on... it is Ann Coulter.
Posted by: oceanguy | October 11, 2007 at 07:50 AM
Gail says, "It is wrong to think Christians are perfect and Jews are not."
Is it similarly wrong to say that Jews are "The Chosen People" and everyone else is not? Does it have a similar snobbery or conceit? If not, why not?
Side note: personally, I'm not a fan of Coulter.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 11, 2007 at 10:29 AM
As I wrote recently on the message board that you and I frequent (you must have missed it):
The concept of "choseness" is often misinterpreted causing envy and jealousy, which I believe underlies some forms of anti-semitism.
Posted by: Gail | October 11, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Didn't miss it, but your (our) audience here did. Don't hide your light under a bushel, as Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. By the way, what the hell is a bushel, anyway?
And, as you know, I don't think it's snobbery or conceit, but I'm here to say, "Well, explain yourself." I think our perpetual conflicts keep things interesting.
That being said, well, if the "only" thing that you were to receive was the Law, that would be one thing. But as you say, you also got some land. Where's my land? Why didn't G*d give my ancestors some land? What a raw deal for the Celts! Why your people, and not mine? What did we ever do wrong, besides the human sacrifice, infanticide, and demon worship?
As a side note: it's of interest that Coulter explicitly states that "Jews go to heaven." While she says that "Christians believe....." she would be more correct in stating that "her brand of Christianity believes that..."...as there is very little agreement among Christians on that subject. There are large numbers of Christians who believe that you MUST accept Christ to go to heaven. There are those who believe that the Elect are already chosen and there's nothing that anyone can do on Earth to alter that fact. There are those who believe that anyone of any faith can get in, entirely based on works.
(To be clear, Gail, I understand why you are offended, and I don't think you're wrong to be offended.)
Posted by: DRaftervoi@aol.com | October 11, 2007 at 11:38 AM
Ok - I gotcha. This Coulter thing is stirring up several conversations like this one on various blogs. Many Democrats are jumping on the bandwagon and trying to use this as a political club with which to beat the Republicans. I don't think as a general rule that Republicans are anti-Jewish or intolerant, and I think that the great majority of Christians are able to frame their beliefs in a much more polite way than Coulter, or else know enough not to be so "in your face" with them. As Roger Simon (blogger and writer)put it, if the Democrats didnt have a Coulter, they'd have to manufacture one - or some such thing. Just when Republicans were winning Jews over - she goes and sticks her foot in it.
I understand who our real enemies are and that Christians are not out to kill us - and that some are very good friends to Israel, and are very well meaning. But I don't think we should ignore blatant disrespect.
Sorry about the land thing. America is much bigger than Israel, Europe is quite pretty and China has a fabulous wall...and as Golda Meir once said, "God took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!"
Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for thousands of years. We belong there. And the Arabs really don't need it - they just want it because someone else has it.
Posted by: Gail | October 11, 2007 at 12:07 PM
"Sorry about the land thing."
You crack me up. But back to Coulter: I don't have any problem with someone telling me that I'm not going to their heaven. Look, there are people of EVERY faith who think people of other faiths are not quite as clued in as they are; Coulter isn't all that different from anybody else in assuming she's got an inside track with the Deity, and ALL OF YOU think that atheists like me are WAY OFF BASE, if not outright damned to some sort of eternal hell, or a lousy next reincarnation, or a very very long purgatory, because let's face it, DRaftervoi has been a very very bad boy, and it's going to take several million years of torment to wash this soul clean.
Seriously, Gail: what does your religion think will happen to MY soul after I shuffle off this mortal coil? Whatever it is, it is bound to be something that I find to be intolerable. Well, not intolerable, because quite frankly, I don't care what your religion thinks about my soul, but I mean it's bound to be something that's ever so slightly...LESS THAN COMPLIMENTARY compared to what I think about myself.
My personal vision is that if I'm wrong about the afterlife and find that I do indeed have an immortal soul, and that I was totally wrong about this G*d thing, is that G*d will say, "Yeah, you were wrong and shouldn't have called me "the demon of the tetragrammaton", but I forgive you, and WE THINK YOU'RE ACES, DRaftervoi. Come and sit right down here...no not down in front, I meant right here, at my right hand. Check it out...have you ever seen a screen that big? And wait until you hear the surround-sound...." And then G*d and I watch football and porno, and eat all the fatty foods we want to eat, for all eternity.
Oh, all right, I'm kidding about the porno, because I'd tell G*d to turn that crap off, it's bad for him spiritually.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 11, 2007 at 07:50 PM
"I don't have any problem with someone telling me that I'm not going to their heaven."
I do. It offends the HELL out of me. Har-har. Seriously, it DOES offend me because it negates any good qualities (though they are few) that I might possess. Makes any niceness or goodness on my part meaningless in their eyes. No matter what I do, no matter what I say, it means nothing unless I join their collective.
Yes, in the end, if that's what they want to think, fine. But it does not generate warm and fuzzy thoughts from me about people who feel this way.
I've seen Christanity without snobbery. There are genuinely good, kind, decent Christians out there. Coulter is not one of them, in my opinion.
"Look, there are people of EVERY faith who think people of other faiths are not quite as clued in as they are; Coulter isn't all that different from anybody else in assuming she's got an inside track with the Deity, and ALL OF YOU think that atheists like me are WAY OFF BASE, if not outright damned to some sort of eternal hell, or a lousy next reincarnation, or a very very long purgatory, because let's face it, DRaftervoi has been a very very bad boy, and it's going to take several million years of torment to wash this soul clean."
Now I am wondering, "Is he saying this seriously, or does he just want to get me going?" You KNOW that I don't think this way. Jews don't have a definitive concept of the afterlife, being much more concerned about life on earth in the here and now, but whatever we do have includes non-Jews as "having a share in the world to come." Same as us, fair and square. If you lead a good life, God's going to think you are cool, IMHO. And if you haven't, I believe that God tempers His judgment with mercy, and that if we consistently show that we are trying to atone for our mistakes, this effort will help to reverse any negative judgments.
Posted by: Gail | October 12, 2007 at 10:13 AM
Yeah, I'm winding you up, but with a purpose. OF COURSE you don't think that about me, but while there is no coherent, central agreement among Jews as to what happens to me in the afterlife, there certainly are schools of thought that say that certain things will happen to my soul, and none of them involve G*d cutting me a break. I'm not sure of your beliefs, so I don't know exactly what you think...Gehenna, Sheol, whatever...at some point, some schools of Jewish thought say that a G*d that I don't believe in is going to do things to me against my will, after I die. From conversing over the years, I think that you probably believe that I'm going to judged fairly and treated well, as I usually behave in a moral and ethical manner, and I think you would qualify it by saying that no one really knows what happens after I die. But I suspect that you do believe that your G*d has sovereignty over my immortal soul after I die, should he happen to exist. So, let's put it out on the argumentative table: what do you think will happen to DRaftervoi's soul after he's become a worm farm?
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 12, 2007 at 10:57 AM
Please excuse my intrusion, but I want to answer what I think is an important question, which also ties into the incorrect perception most Jews have about "chosenness".
DRaftervoi asks: "what does your religion think will happen to MY soul after I shuffle off this mortal coil?"
Your soul will live on. We believe in the immortality of the soul. As for our religion's official stance, there is no catechism on that question except for the tenant that the fate of your soul depends on the deeds you perform in this earthly life, regardless of your beliefs.
Our religion recognizes that we have no idea what happens when our bodies become "worm farms." Our religion has a variety of stories, or midrashes, about what might happen, but one of the major points of our religion is that we acknowledge that we don't know for sure what happens, and the ONLY thing we can control is how we live THIS life. We do not concern ourselves, as a rule, with visions of heaven or of including or excluding anyone from whatever afterlife there is.
From the Jewish perspective, anyone and everyone earns their share of whatever "The World To Come," or Olam Habah means… or is... We do it through our deeds in this earthly life. Because Jews were chosen for the Covenant, we have extra obligations in this life, but no extra "privileges" … in the World to Come or anywhere else. But because I believe that, doesn't mean it's so... it only means that the Jewish tradition we follow has worked for thousands of years. It worked in generations past and will continue to work.
What happens to your soul... if any of us has one… doesn't depend on what you or I believe. What will happen will happen. Only through death, if even then, could any belief be proven "true and right." If God does NOT exist, then I'll still throw my hat in with the smart Jews from a few millennia ago who dreamt up this religion scheme to help improve society and make the world a better place. As I said before, it's worked pretty well for a small group of folks through the ages who have certainly had their share of obstacles thrown in their way. There are plenty of other cultures/peoples/empires/civilizations who have simply disappeared through the ages... but we Jews, and our quirky tradition we call Judaism that has worked well to keep us together and allow us to have a disproportionate influence on our host cultures during the past 2000 years of Diaspora continue to survive only because of that tradition.
One thing I find so off-putting in some Christians and in Coulter's comments, is the arrogance in her assumption, her belief, that she is right...
While, like Gail, I believe Coulter is wrong on a couple of pretty major beliefs, at least I can recognize and acknowledge that she may be right... there is no way for me to know. But in the end, it doesn't matter... Who is right and what the truth is about God cannot be proven. So I will stick with belief in my tradition that our actions matter… our thoughts and beliefs, not so much.
In our tradition, most believe that you can still be a "Good Jew" even if you don't believe in God, just as most believe that ALL of God's creatures will have some share in the World to Come.
I'm not sure where you got your idea that any of the various Jewish ways of thinking of the afterlife wouldn't "cut you a break," I think there you are mistaken. Even the most observant of Orthodox Jews would recognize that adherence to the Seven Noachide Laws is all that is required of Gentiles to be righteous and earn a full share of Olam Habah. As to particulars of specific beliefs of Jews about our responsibilities and our individual roles in bringing about the World to Come... that is a religious discussion that ought not be entered with non-believers... because in the end it's purely moot... At least not as a debate or an attempt to persuade. We Jews are not proselytizers, we even question the sanity and the veracity of those who actually want to take on added responsibilities without any extra “compensation.”
From my Jewish perspective it doesn't matter what anyone believes. I would simply prefer that everyone act in a manner that makes this earth, and our lives, and the lives of the generations that follow us a better place.
Posted by: oceanguy | October 12, 2007 at 12:48 PM
"...in both heaven and hell, human beings cannot bend their elbows. In hell people are perpetually starved; in heaven each person feeds his neighbor."
As long as you don't murder anyone Draftervoi, I believe you'll likely get fed.
Seriously, there's too little for me to go on to give you a definitive answer. Judaism really leaves most of it a mystery - which is as it should be, IMHO. We have the Torah to guide us, rabbis who have discussed it and written about it, and their arguments and discussions continue, we are to study as much as possible and try to adhere to The Laws as best we can, be compassionate to our neighbors, good parents and spouses, hold the door for the people behind us, don't get too full of ourselves, don't worship false idols, feel sorry when we mess up, try to make amends, pray, do acts of charity, take responsibility for and own up to our mistakes, realize that what we do affects others around us, give it our all, try to be dependable, learn as much as we can, be the best we can be, and enjoy the gift of life and be thankful we are here.
Do this, close our eyes to temptation to do anything other, and hope for the best.
Rabbi Joseph Telushkin writes:
He's got more to say about Jewish thought on afterlife that I think is worth reading.
Just read Oceanguy's response: Bravo. Well done!
Posted by: Gail | October 12, 2007 at 12:50 PM
Coulter likes to wind up the Liberal-Loonie-Left and make them say rabid and stupid things... It looks like she forgot who was supposed to be the provacateur and which the provoked... Her position is so silly that it does not bear examination. It ignores history. It ignores Christian church teaching and practices. It ignores an examination of the fools that buy that crapola at retail and the lying greedy slugs who sell it...
Her "wisdom" belongs side Jimmy Carter's rambling ranting on CNN... Both Coulter and Carter were given enough rope and hung themselves... BUY BOTH of them a big cheeseburger and two ice cold beers-! Then let em take a long nap... It's past their bedtime...
I will be we see much more silliness over the next 14 months... It's in the air. It's in the water...It's everywhere we go.. Time to put the politician/pundit children to bath and bed... They are tired, excited, hungry and probably need a big poop-!... Sheesh-! We need more adults-!!!
Posted by: AndyJ | October 12, 2007 at 04:58 PM
"Time to put the politician/pundit children to bath and bed... They are tired, excited, hungry and probably need a big poop-!..."
LOL.
Posted by: Gail | October 13, 2007 at 11:28 AM
DRaftervoi.
As has already been said from a Judaic standpoint all you need to do is "be good" and you'll get yours. I appreciate your position, I don't care what people think about my religious perspective because from a personal level it makes no difference. You can tell me I am going to spend eternity in hell, cleveland or Kalamazoo. You don't really know more than I do.
But, the fact is that there is a long history of antisemitic behavior based upon an ideology that has used Coulter's crack as part of its foundation.
I won't sit back and laugh and say that it is just marketing. Maybe that is how she intended it and maybe it is not. It is irresponsible and she deserves to feel the consequences of her actions.
Posted by: Jack | October 13, 2007 at 01:02 PM
To O.G. n' Gail: actually, I was thinking of the Rambam's contention that Gentiles not in compliance with the Noachide Laws die soulless, and some of the more arcane corners such as the Kabbalists' contention that there is a purgatory, to which I'm subject. Current R. and C. thoughts on the subject don't have anything that offends me and I don't know enough about O. to have an opinion - although you might want to look up Rabbi Grama's thoughts on the nature of DRaftervoi's soul. Having broken at least five and a half of the Noachide Laws (is the prohibition against fresh blood, or just blood in general? And do invertebrates count as living animals?) I don't qualify as a Righteous Gentile. Therefore, I die like an animal (according to Maimonides). Am I offended? Not really, jeez, it's not like my mom doesn't call me and tell me that I live like one at least once a week. Bow wow wow, mom.
But back to Coulter: I want to point out that Deutsch overstates the case when he compares Coulter to Ahmadinejad. What Coulter seeks is voluntary - that is, she thinks that Jews should be won over by the superiority of her arguments supporting her faith, and in truth, she doesn't just think that about the Jews, she thinks that about all faiths. Offensive? Yes, because of the history cited by Jack. But that is not the same thing as calling for Israel to be wiped off the map by force.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 15, 2007 at 10:01 AM
When it comes down to weighing and judging and determining who is going where in the afterlife, anyone who issues a definitive opinion while they are alive has no idea of what they are talking about.
God will judge by God's method of judgment.
God may have a scale which will measure not just the good we have done, but our potential for good and whether or not we have met it. It may be different for each one of us, depending upon expectations. Therefore, outer appearances may not be a true expression.
We each know what we know. We each have the still, small voice that tells us right and wrong. We each have free will to choose what we do.
The judgments we humans make about one another may be right or may be wrong. Sometimes, it's very difficult to see what is right. I am still thinking about all of this and turning it over in my mind.
Posted by: Gail | October 15, 2007 at 12:02 PM
DRaftervoi:
I think by Fresh blood you are referring to the prohibition of eating flesh while it is still alive. Yes, I suppose you can argue that eating raw oysters and clams is a violation. Of course arguing the particulars of the laws as written in Torah and debated in the Mishna and Talmud is a particularly Jewish endeavor. Again, as Gail says, our human judgments of God's intentions and our understanding of the divine is woefully inadequate. Because we are indeed perplexed, Coulter's flip and smug comments are doubly offensive. Anti-Semitic? no... But the remarks are emblematic of the arrogance that many Christians display in the certainty of their faith. Methinks blind faith is not healthy.
It is a hot button for me to realize that, in the end, Christians really do want to convert the Jews. Yes, I think my religion has it right in accepting that we do not have exclusivity in the World to Come. As you point out, we can argue over the specifics of behavior and number of transgressions allowed, but in the end, we Jews include ALL good people and feel no need to proselytize... and we can get irritated when we're not accorded the same... even when it's some bimbo like Ann Coulter.
Posted by: oceanguy | October 15, 2007 at 12:44 PM
DRaftervoi wrote:
" ... Having broken at least five and a half of the Noachide Laws (is the prohibition against fresh blood, or just blood in general? And do invertebrates count as living animals?) I don't qualify as a Righteous Gentile. Therefore, I die like an animal (according to Maimonides) ... "
no,
and to tie it into the perspective of what Ann Coulter wrote,
"... So we think Jews go to heaven. I mean, [Rev. Jerry] Falwell himself said that, but you have to follow laws. ..."
the AriZal (authoritative Kabbalist) says that everyone has to come back into this world until their souls fulfill all 613 commandments (Ann's statement of becoming 'perfected' by 'following laws'),
[and although not specifically mentioned by the AriZal, i believe that the extension of this is, also applies to the Nations of the World, in returning to fulfill the 7 Noahide laws], in order that ALL Souls that G-D created should become Righteous, and truly deserve a share in the World to Come
(btw,
NOBODY in Judaism thinks her 'fast-track' solution would work,)
back to the matter at hand,
Where are all the liberal sites when countless Arabs and their sympathizers have publicly said much worse thing about Jews than Ann has ever said?!
In the long run,
i think that Ann is a friend of the Jews,
(and a relative voice of Sanity against the PC hypocritical left),
even if she does say 'strange' things regularly in 'live' interviews.
Let's not become pawns of the anti-Semitic left who couldn't care less about Jews, but hate Ann with a passion, and will use any opportunity to try to discredit her
i'd rather side with Ann Coulter than with Media Matters,
on any topic i can think of
exdemexlib
Posted by: exdemexlib | October 15, 2007 at 02:01 PM
It really is a shame that there is such a wide audience for such an ignorant and divisive voice such as Anne Coulter's. We should be giving a forum for people like Rabbi Shmuley Boteach to speak- someone who is passionate and believes in uniting our country regardless of race, class, or religion.
I just saw him in the documentary Desert Bayou (http://www.desertbayoumovie.com) and was impressed with how he was able to unite a conservative white community (in Utah) with the Katrina evacuees that were shipped there, at some personal cost. I'd love to see the media give himself and people like him a greater voice, instead of continuing to cater to polarizing personalities like Coulter's.
Posted by: Christina Shideler | October 15, 2007 at 03:49 PM
"It is a hot button for me to realize that, in the end, Christians really do want to convert the Jews..."
This is news? "really do want to convert"? You weren't taking Christian evangelism seriously until Ann Coulter brought it up, but now you've thrown in the towel and believe them and it's a hot button issue going forward?
Trust me on this one: Christianity wants EVERYBODY to come to Jesus. That has been their mission for over 2,000 years and it will be their mission for all the days to come.
As long as they feel that their mission is to exert argumentative pressure on me, I'm fine with that. All I want is to be treated as a full citizen and be accorded all the rights and priveges (and obligations) that are accorded my fellow citizens. Yeah, it's offensive to non-Christians to be told that there's a "superior" or "better" way to G*d.
Neither of you addressed the contention by one of the leading lights of medievel Jewish thought that I am soulless as a dog or whether this contention could be considered offensive or not. I'm actually NOT offended, indeed, I agree with the Rambam: I am but ambulatory hamburger. My point in bringing it up is that virtually all belief systems have some corner or another where offense lurks.
Heck, you could make the argument that it would be offensive NOT to preach to a specific group. If you believe that you have been given a revelation by G*d, and that revelation is the key to heaven and the ONLY key to heaven, and you believe that G*d tasked you to give His Word to all the peoples of the Earth, and you choose to NOT tell Group X for some reason, you're committing spiritual genocide and committing Group X to the fires of Hell forever.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 15, 2007 at 03:52 PM
It may be Coulter's duty to try to convert Jews, but I feel it is my duty to speak up and say we are perfect-ly fine as we are, thankyouverymuch.
The words of Maimonides have never been responsible for harming anyone. The idea that Jews are imperfect on the other hand...
Posted by: Gail | October 15, 2007 at 04:59 PM
DRaftervoi: This is news? "really do want to convert"? You weren't taking Christian evangelism seriously until Ann Coulter brought it up, but now you've thrown in the towel and believe them and it's a hot button issue going forward
No, it is not news. But living, and getting along pretty well, in this Christian country tends to lull me to sleep about the differences. Sometimes I actually feel like we Jews are accepted for who we are and not just tolerated as "beings not yet perfected." All evangelizing is offensive, but my hot button is uncovered when, people I wouldn't expect to hold that belief so strongly and personally, reveal their true beliefs. It serves as a slap in the face that my faith is tolerated... that I am tolerated and not really a part of our Christian culture. It's why I usually stay out of such interfaith discussions... No, sadly, it's not news... it's par for the course. And as I've said before the last time I jumped into a discussion of faith between you and Gail: Every day I am reminded that this is a Christian country. Everyday I overlook or ignore comments and assumptions in the press, among co-workers, on TV, in Jokes... everywhere... that remind me I am not really a part of the America that the majority lives in. To get along and because it is counter-productive to say anything or to make myself look different, I let it slide. But sometimes it crosses a line. Coulter crossed the line by stating what is essentially Christian doctrine... No it's not news, but neither is it polite.
I don't push my tradition on others and simply want the same courtesy in return. Just as you don't want to have it forced upon you. I'm proud of the way Judaism expects me to handle it, and I wish more people acted that way. But it's not the way things are. Often it is, but then someone like Coulter comes along and throws the bucket of cold water on me to wake me up and remind me, they are not as tolerant as they preach.
As for Maimonides... there is a huge body of work, way beyond the scope of discussion of this post that can be debated, indeed has been debated for the past 500 years. As a conservative Jew I welcome the sciences and modern knowledge to help us in our struggle to understand the instructions we believe we were given. But even in the Middle Ages, Maimonides, didn't consider himself infallible, nor did any of the later sages and Rabbis. Nor are all of his writings entirely consistent... The Mishna, Talmud and Shulcan Aruch are the written record of many of the early debates... and since the completion of the SA, the debates continue.
The Talmud says, "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come." THAT is the, almost universally held, Jewish belief about the fate of one's soul. Quite a contrast to the Christian and Moslem points of view.
Again, we can debate, just as the Rabbis have debated for millennia before us, about the specifics of who is Righteous, and who does and does not have a share of Olam Habah. But in the simplest form: If you are a good human, regardless of religion or beliefs, you will share in whatever it is God has waiting for us at the end of time.
Judaism has no monopoly on the keys to the World to come. It is beyond our understanding... but that doesn't mean that there aren't any opinions about what happens, or stories to help us think about it. It only means that we don't know. Yes, even Maimonides recognized that.
You've scored points by quoting a learned... perhaps the most learned man of his time... but I look at that selection as an exception that proves the rule. Maybe someone with more recent studies of the Rambam's writings on the subject can offer the balancing quotes but out of laziness I'll refrain and just be comforted knowing that he was not as certain nor as uncompromising as your selection makes him to be. Actually I think your argument would have more merit if you focused on intent to follow the Noachide Laws. On that point he may have been more stringent. Still, with the exception of some specific rulings on specific points of Jewish law, even his thoughts are not the final word.
Does it bother me that you believe you have no soul? Not in the least. It only bothers me if your behavior is counter to making our world a better place for us and the generations who come after us.
Posted by: oceanguy | October 15, 2007 at 05:15 PM
Once again, great writing, Oceanguy.
I am somewhat puzzled by the fact that so many fellow Jews are fine with someone saying directly to the face of another Jew that his beliefs are imperfect. Yes, we appreciate our reception in this Christian country - but how good is it when we are expected to stand silent while we are told we are not as good as Anne Coulter believes she is?
I have been completely delighted to have found Christians who do not think this way. I think many have re-thought their task to convert Jews and reinterpreted their vision of Jewish souls. Here is one such example - and I believe there are many others. This Christian is a true friend - not a surface friend.
If we say nothing, we condone the thought that we are subordinate. It is a-ok with us, Ms. Boss Lady Coulter. If we speak out, maybe someone will listen and care and change. And if they take offense, well, that tells us something too - something it may be in our best interest to find out sooner, rather than later.
Posted by: Gail | October 15, 2007 at 06:10 PM
O.G.: out of laziness, I'm not going to dig much further, either. In particular, I don't like judging a man of a millenium prior to my existence by modern standards for he will always be found wanting, and in general, because my goal isn't to tar current Judaism with the views of an individual - regardless of when he lived. In my experience "the Jews" don't think any one thing, but have ten thousand schools of thought - same as it ever was. And to be clear, I found plenty of Rabbis who disagreed with the Rambam's opinion, so it is not "the final word" on the subject.
And if I have my way, no one will ever get the final word on anything, including me. There's always room for argument.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 15, 2007 at 07:23 PM
I would never hold Christians today responsible for what people in the past have said. But if they are unaware, for example, that Martin Luther's writings were viciously anti-semitic, I might bring it to their attention.
Anne Coulter's opinion and the way it was expressed - the imperfection of Judaism and the perfection of Christianity - to my ear (and to other Jews, though it seems not to all) echoes Christian antisemitism of the past. It grates, plain and simple. And I feel badly about the impediment the thought that Jews are going to hell places between myself and Christians, many of whom I like and admire. If their task is to spread God's love on earth, telling Jews and others that they are imperfect does not seem, in my opinion, to be a good way of going about this.
If there were a way that Christians could say, "we believe our faith to be the right path" without also saying/hinting at the same time, "And you will be damned for yours," well, that would be nice.
If it can't be done, so be it. It is what it is, and I will deal with it.
Posted by: Gail | October 16, 2007 at 08:07 AM
We have no argument on Coulter, Gail, as I found her words offensive, too. Remember, I'm not going to her heaven, either, but there's always room for discussion about the issue.
In fairness to Coulter, she did NOT say "Jews are going to Hell," as a matter of fact, she specifically said, "So we think Jews go to heaven." Period. No implication of Hell. And she then pushed Christianity as a "fast track" and "easier" way to get into heaven, not to keep Jews out of hell, but as a better way of getting there. Deutsch interprets this as being the exact same thing as Ahmadinewhaddevah's desire to "wipe Israel off the Earth."
I absolutely understand that voluntary calls for conversion are offensive to you, but as offensive as it is, it is not the same thing as killing people. I also understand that Mr. Deutsch makes this connection because anti-semitism has used the issue of who gets into heaven in the past to promote hatred and intolerance. Coulter's words, though, are very specific: "...we think Jews go to heaven." Unless you're accusing her of perverting the language ("Arbeit Mach Frei"), she's guilty of being rude...but not anti-semitic (in my opinion). If you disagree with my conclusion, please let me know (and O.G. should toss in his dos centavos, tambien.)
And is it just me, or does Coulter run her hand through her hair far too often?
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 16, 2007 at 10:38 AM
You are right - Coulter doesn't want to see the death of Jews.
She "just" wants to see the death of Judaism.
You are also right that she doesn't say Jews are going to hell.
She "just" thinks Jews are imperfect.
Certainly, this is much better than wanting Jews dead, and we ought to thank her.
Posted by: Gail | October 16, 2007 at 06:43 PM
Ah. My mouth is now full of words I did not say. Your sarcasm is duly noted. Please note that I said that Coulter's words were rude, and offensive. I am not in the habit of thanking those who are rude and offensive, and I do not suggest that you do so, either. Nor do I suggest you turn the other cheek, forget about it, ignore it... Personally, I think offensive things like this should be treated just the way we have been treating it, with a good knock-down, drag-out discussion of the issue. I think we should turn Coulter's rock over, and examine the ugly crawly things under it. I don't think she's an anti-semite, though. Do you?
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 16, 2007 at 07:52 PM
Sorry, Draftervoi. I didn't mean to insult you or put words in your mouth.
No, I guess I don't see Coulter as an anti-semite exactly, but she is anti-Judaism, and the line is probably a bit more muddled to me than you. For me: If we are Jews, we are Judaism. if you erase Judaism, you erase what makes us, us. And therefore, we are erased. Assimilated into the collective.
Through death or conversion, it is a disconcerting thought. I don't want to be a different me anymore than I want to be dead.
And the question, as usual: What's wrong with me as I am, anyway?
Posted by: Gail | October 16, 2007 at 08:09 PM
Thought experiment: Change all the references to Jews in what Anne Coulter said to black, and pretend that instead of talking to Donny Deutsch, she was speaking with Clarence Thomas. White = perfect Black = imperfect the US would be better off if everyone were white, etc.
Posted by: Gail | October 17, 2007 at 09:06 AM
I'm sure the line is more muddled to thee than me, and I'm sure you care more, as you're Jewish. However, the reason why I asked the blunt question of "is she or isn't she" is that I treat anti-semite differently than I treat the rude. Rudeness I personally condemn; anti-semitism I publicly denounce. If she's an anti-semite, I tell my children not to watch her, don't read her books, keep her out of our family's life. If she's rude, I tell them they're watching someone who is rude, but I don't turn off the television. You get the idea. Distinctions are important.
As for your thought experiment, it's not the exactly the same, because of the difference between race, ethnicity, culture, and religion. You cannot give up your racial identity, but you can give up your religion. If I do a straight word-for-word swap, it does become racist, but it becomes nonsensical, so I concede your point but continue to disagree.
On the other hand, if Coulter has a slightly different imaginary conversation in which she urges blacks to ...let's see...try to reduce the number of black out-of-wedlock births to be closer to the white levels by following Christian practices, she's back on rude territory.
I don't see that Coulter is urging an end to Jewish racial identity (hence your use of the term "DEATH of Judaism") but urging an END of the Jewish religion ("end" being subtly different than "death"). And yes, I know how insulting it is to suggest that you voluntarily end the entire religion of a people. Hench my statement that Coulter is rude and yours that she is anti-judaism, not anti-semitic (a statement, BTW, that I completely agree with). These are all fine lines of distinction here, but they're important (see my first paragraph). I trust your judgement on these things, Gail, and I don't always trust mine. Discussions like this help me understand where these fine lines are, and refine my judgement, which I hope to pass on to my children.
Speaking of which, we had an incident last night in which my son set off the theft alarm at Walgreens on the way into the store - probably one of the metal pins in his arm. We pointed it out to the clerk at the counter. On the way out, it went off again, but that clerk was gone. So the store manager comes out, and we go through a lot of rigamarole with which my son grows increasingly frustated. We escape without a strip-search, and when I question the boy about his poor attitude, he explodes with "you don't understand, you look different than me, they think you're just some stranger there getting involved because you don't look like me..." The anguish is palpable. And I realize he's right. I don't inhabit exactly the same cultural space as he does because of the difference in our racial identity. All of us yell to each other across a great divide at times, Gail, and I want to take this opportunity to thank you for yelling back across at me.
Posted by: DRaftervoi | October 17, 2007 at 10:04 AM
My dos pesetas: I agree on Coulter... she's offensive, and rude. And I agree further she's not Anti-Semitic. In fact earlier in the thread I characterized her words as "impolite". Granted in the context of the interview she was merely responding to Deutsh, but in her crass provocative way she didn't even try to be polite let alone tolerant.
Mainstreaming her main points is the danger I feel... the true Anti-Semite using her words to justify, or rationalize as acceptable, their own Anti-Semitism. Context, in that case, is irrelevant.
Posted by: oceanguy | October 17, 2007 at 01:51 PM
"I'm sure the line is more muddled to thee than me, and I'm sure you care more, as you're Jewish. However, the reason why I asked the blunt question of "is she or isn't she" is that I treat anti-semite differently than I treat the rude. Rudeness I personally condemn; anti-semitism I publicly denounce."
There may be reasons to denounce Anne Coulter other than antisemitism. But I am not advocating anyone else denounce her. I was simply stating my own disagreement with her ideas and ways of expressing them, and my own personal feeling that she crossed the line. Her thoughts are too anti-Jewish for my taste. Her blythely expressed hope for an end (end or death are one and the same to me in this instance) to the religion of Judaism is anathema to me: Based upon the Jewish lives lost and the suffering my people withstood to maintain their Jewishness, the fact that Jews consider Judaism to be complete and good in and of itself, the fact that I believe that all humans have the same potential for good and selfishness and that Coulter's words change the level of the playing field, that her words serve as reinforcement for antisemites, that she does not care enough to be more careful in what she says, that her belief that her beliefs are "perfect" and all others imperfect is a form of conceit, that her belief violates my very strongly held belief that a fast track to goodness does not exist and to think it does is an impediment to the achievement of good behavior, that it reveals her emphasis on belief rather than actions as a determinent for good and evil.
But this is all based on my personal opinion and beliefs. For ME, she crossed the line. Whether or not she crossed anyone else's is up to them. I have a blog to express my opinion, and if I've never said it before, my opinions are just my opinions, I am *not* perfect, my interpretations of the world are flawed in the same way as any other human's might be, I acknowledge the fact that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, and I could be wrong.
Got lots more to say (the definition of Jewish identity, your story about your son - ), but I am out of time. Will try to come back later and finish up.
Posted by: Gail | October 18, 2007 at 07:45 AM
My thoughts.
She IS a blonde. :-)
But then, so am I.
She popped off and made an ass of herself.
She also made me, as a Christian, mad.
If that is her opinion, sobeit.
But it is NOT a universal opinion of Christians.
Hell very well may be here on earth.
I'm beginning to think so!!!
Heaven, well, heaven is heaven is heaven.
The thing is, in my way of thinking, Ms. Coulter's tippy toed her way backwards from "there."
Wherever "there" is.
She is a prettier Michael Moore is all.
Posted by: alisa | October 18, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Miss Alisa is a perfect example of a Christian Christian, as far as I am concerned. She has her own religion, values, culture and traditions - they are important to her, she believes in them, and they make her who she is - but she does not go around acting as if she's a better person - she makes me feel that she and I are equals. We are different, but we are both ok in and of ourselves. I don't want to change her, she does not want to change me. I appreciate what makes her who she is and further, I say if there is a tradition or set of beliefs that goes into creating people as good and kind as Alisa, it has to be a fine tradition and set of beliefs.
Back to what I was saying earlier - if I can still remember the points I wanted to make before I ran out of time - - Draftervoi writes:
"As for your thought experiment, it's not the exactly the same, because of the difference between race, ethnicity, culture, and religion. You cannot give up your racial identity, but you can give up your religion. If I do a straight word-for-word swap, it does become racist, but it becomes nonsensical, so I concede your point but continue to disagree."
To me, it is the same - I identify as a Jew - it is not just a religion or a culture or a nationality, it is who I am. My experiences as a Jew make up part of the ingredients that form my personality, the way I look at life, people, the universe.
It can't be changed anymore than a black person could change their skin color - my personality and identity are solidified.
If given a choice between death and conversion, a person could choose conversion, whereas a person could not be given that choice an change race to save him/herself. But that's not my focus here. Anne Coulter says the US would be a better place if we were all Christians. But I identify as a Jew and don't feel I have any choice in it. If enough people feel the same as Coulter, it makes living here an uncomfortable place for a Jew. If the majority thought the US would be a better place if everyone were white - it would be an uncomfortable place for non-whites. Is this racism? Religionism? I don't know what you'd call it. It's not antisemitism because it doesn't involve genocide - but to me it's worse than a simple case of rudeness.
As far as the incident you described with your son - that sounds truly difficult and painful. Reminds me of a friend of mine - a white woman married to a black man. They had a son who was good friends with my middle son when they were younger. He did not look at all like her, and she used to complain to me that people always assumed he was adopted, and she'd get irritated at having to constantly set them straight. Her son was very tall, a solid, muscular guy - always big for his age. My son was slight and small for his age - they made a funny pair. Anyway, appearances can be so deceptive, because he was as shy and gentle as anything, to the point where, when we tried to have him sleepover our house, he'd never make it through the night due to being homesick - always had to call his parents to come and get him somewhere around 1 am. he felt comfortable with us because we'd known him since he was 2 1/2, but still he had trouble separating. As he got older, people would look at him and think he was a coordinated, self-assured athlete, but he was shy, sensitive and had no interest in sports. It was very difficult for him at times to have his outer self appear to be so different from his inner self and for him to be treated as something he was not, while who he really was went completely unnoticed and was trampled over.
For whatever it's worth, it's possible the store manager was reacting to your son's age rather than race - my oldest son always used to complain that he felt he was watched more closely in stores just because he was a teenager - it used to really annoy him.
My daughter takes after my husband's looks more than she does mine, and though we are the same race, we could not be any more differeent in personality - she being an extroverted party girl and me being an introverted bookworm. I have a hard time occupying her cultural space, and she mine, quite often. She's been known to say to me, "Mom, you are such a Jew." She's referring to the fact that I worry over her and smother her in typical Jewish mother fashion. Of course she knows how well that sort of thing goes over with me, and says it just to get a rise out of me, but just to irritate her, I continue to smile and chirp away as if I didn't even notice. lol. Oh, the games we play.
Not to make light of your story - I don't have any answer except, gee, that has to be tough at times.
Posted by: Gail | October 18, 2007 at 01:28 PM